trickssi
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Oct 23, 2009 15:11:51 GMT -5
Post by trickssi on Oct 23, 2009 15:11:51 GMT -5
This is the thread to discuss Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann!
*PLEASE NOTE: If you have seen this series, please don't spoil it for others. Only discuss the episodes which we have watched thus far. Once the entire club has seen the show, we will be able to do more "meta" discussion. Thanks for your cooperation!*
~
I personally (and this may be judging the show prematurely) LOVE it so far. The art and animation (and colors!) are simply gorgeous and while the plot hasn't been fully fleshed out so far, it feels similar to a video game.
... And I'm pretty sure I'm going to slash some peeps up in thur. Kamina is just too awesome.
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duohimura
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Oct 26, 2009 16:48:52 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Oct 26, 2009 16:48:52 GMT -5
Hm... I wonder if it wouldn't hurt to make a running list of questionable translations in the official subs? For instance:
1) Gurren-dan literally does translate as something like "Team Gurren," but due to the sheer Power Rangers-effect of that translation, most fans prefer the (incorrect) "Gurren Brigade," or to simply use "Gurren-dan."
2) A less sk8ter-punk translation of the Gurren-dan's motto would be something like "We go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb! That's our Gurren-dan!" (Honestly, people who translate anime? Never, ever, try to use slang. You are BAD AT IT.)
3) The official subs use the word "Gunmen" to refer to the mechs, whereas the Japanese would ordinarily be rendered into English as "Ganmen," which is Japanese for "face." This makes a lot more sense, seeing as only two or three mechs in the entire series use what could be termed guns (though there are a lot of missiles and such). However, "Gunmen" is an acceptable, if nonstandard, romanization of the phrase--"Gan" becomes "Gun" in Gundam as well. When the decision was originally announced there was some fan debate as to whether Gainax had specifically requested this translation (to create an English pun rather than a Japanese pun?), but I've never seen anything reliably confirm/deny this.
4) I seem to recall that the mysterious man who appears at the beginning of the first episode (nicknamed GARlock) responding to "Are all the lights in heaven our enemy?" with "They aren't worthy to be our opponents!" rather than "They're worthy opponents." Clearly -somoene- has it wrong here, though in this case the meanings are so opposite that it's not simply a matter of who's more aesthetically pleasing.
5) GARlock is, as I said, the fan nickname of the character who appears in episode 1 and was awesome. His name is portmanteau of the word GAR and Space Pirate Captain Harlock (possibly anime's original complete badass--check out the series over at Funimation/Crunchyroll. It's from the 70s, so the animation hasn't aged well, but Matsumoto Leiji series don't need to age well--or obey the laws of physics. They're all about capturing the imagination). The reason for the Harlock reference is that the shot where GARlock screams "Who the hell do you think I am?!" and the shot zooms out from him down over the guns of the ship he's on is an homage to the opening theme of the second (unlicensed) Harlock anime, known as Captain Harlock Endless Road (/Orbit?) SSX. You can find the opening on Youtube if you are so inclined.
GAR, is, on the other hand, a fan term that emerged from the anime Fate/Stay Night. Someone on a forum had intended to write "I'm gay for Archer" (a character from the series), but had misspelled it as "I'm gar for Archer." Since then, GAR has evolved into a phrase which effectively describes a man so manly that you would either turn gay for them or your own manliness is so lacking by comparison that doing so would be unnecessary. Obviously this is riddled with stereotype but it is an internet meme.
6) When Lagann is being crunched by the big Ganmen in episode 1, Yoko literally says something like "It's tight...!" and Kamina yells "Don't say stuff like that in here!" The innuendo was significantly muddled in the official subs, weirdly enough, considering that they leave Leeron alone (though really, you can't make Leeron not have innuendos).
7) No particular explanation has been offered as to why official subs went with "Littner" for the name of village Yoko's from (and hence her last name), when the Japanese is literally "Ritona." It's not incorrect, it just seems out of the blue to not use the direct transliteration.
Also, it is worth noting that Kamina's theme on the OST is entitled: "Rap is a Man's Soul! Open Your Ears Wide and Listen to the Theme of the Great Kamina, the Man Who Believes in Himself and Surges at Heaven!"
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katchan
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Nov 2, 2009 20:27:27 GMT -5
Post by katchan on Nov 2, 2009 20:27:27 GMT -5
personally, I think the translation of this series has been fine. While it may not be what you are used to, it is still a flipping hilarious series, and i'm loving it. nowhere before has a drill taken on so much importance/so many different meanings!!! last weeks showing was almost a cliffhanger, so i'm really exicted to see how this will go. And, is it just me, or is viral turning into the type of character that just always gets beat up by Kamina??
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katchan
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Nov 5, 2009 23:23:52 GMT -5
Post by katchan on Nov 5, 2009 23:23:52 GMT -5
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duohimura
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Nov 6, 2009 0:59:09 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 6, 2009 0:59:09 GMT -5
To the previous statement: I believe "SIMON IS A ****ING MAN NOW, SON," may also be appropriate. He's manned up enough to even have his own insert song.
Even if it did take Nia to do it. I mean, there are a couple of Nia-moments that I like, mostly much further on, but she's just such a Mary Sue... (well, okay, Kamina's almost in the same boat, but he earns it by being immensely entertaining and... well, you know)
Some other things of note--SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 8 HERE:
Kamina's death is a reference to the ending of the boxing series Ashita no Joe, in which the title character apparently slumps forward in basically the same fashion and dies after a bout, if I recall correctly. In the anime I think the color goes too, so it's a really clear reference.
Also, Squidward was in the underwater episode, but so briefly you apparently need to pause to notice it (because I didn't even though I've found him previously). Unless there's another water-episode, but I can't think why there would be at this point.
And on another nitpicky translation note, the line "Abayo, Dachiko" has alternately been translated as "Farewell, Comrades," though it's really fairly informal, so the official subs have that part right. However, it -is- plural, so "Later, Buddy" isn't quite right either. Also even though "later" is a casual way of saying "goodbye" in English, it makes no freakin' sense as someone's LAST WORDS. "Goodbye, my friends," seems like a good middle ground, if you can imagine someone saying it informally. This one I mention mostly because it becomes important later on when certain characters refer back to the line. Also it's relevant that Kamina was referring to everyone, not strictly Simon.
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myusollo
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Nov 6, 2009 20:35:15 GMT -5
Post by myusollo on Nov 6, 2009 20:35:15 GMT -5
Doesn't a Mary Sue imply that the character's supposed to be an idealized version of the creator? 'Cuz it looks like the principal director and at least most (if not all) of the writers are dudes. Not very Nia-ish.
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duohimura
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Nov 7, 2009 20:43:44 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 7, 2009 20:43:44 GMT -5
Doesn't a Mary Sue imply that the character's supposed to be an idealized version of the creator? 'Cuz it looks like the principal director and at least most (if not all) of the writers are dudes. Not very Nia-ish. Well, that's one definition of it. The broader version is "a character who is unrealistically perfect, lacking any real flaws." Additionally, a very common symptom is every eligible member of the cast abruptly falling in love with this character for no good reason. Or the ability to win everyone's acceptance without really doing anything. Or an angsty backstory that never really seems to affect the character's cheery outlook, etc. (like, honestly, who just accepts that everyone they've ever known has decided it's time to kill them?). Also--her eyes are not only two-toned, but her pupils are actually FLOWERS, okay? I mean, that'd be worth calling "Mary Sue" right there if it was a fanfic. The fact that she literally comes into the story as a replacement does not help matters. I don't hate her all the time, but if you think about it, she basically never has any sort of problem that actually requires -her- to do something rather than her to let someone else do it. And okay, for a girl who we're told was created because Genome finds raising children to be a neat hobby, it makes sense that she'd be pretty passive. It just bugs me that the show never bothers to call her on it--you can interpret her character as having a couple of flaws, but they're not well supported by how the show treats her. Kamina's flaws, part of his charm though they may have been, were shown quite clearly, at the least. I dunno, personal pet peeve. Yeah GL isn't great for psychologically deep characters, but I mean, Yoko at least manages to have a lot more too her than just being the fanservice-y action-girl. And Kamina and Simon are excellent takes on the "Mentor"/"Hero" archetypes (they may not reinvent them, but they take them so far that it's fairly fresh, and they're archetypes that have been out of favor lately anyway). Even Viral gets to have some character development. But Nia gets pretty much stuck as a typical (and not especially interesting) princess/love interest/moe-girl. *Shrugs*
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trickssi
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Nov 8, 2009 2:09:22 GMT -5
Post by trickssi on Nov 8, 2009 2:09:22 GMT -5
Whoa, whoa whoa. Hold the phone. I'm gonna get in on this with my opinions. I just got back from a day-long ballroom competition 6 hours away that I had to drive for, so I'm not quite conscious right now, but I've got some things to say.
OBJECTION. HOLD IT.
Some of us can "accept when everyone they've ever known" wants to oppose them--some people can prove their ilk through their manipulation of the circumstances. She may not quite understand what she's doing, but I like Nia. Every show needs a moe princess. Especially to foil/mirror the character it just lost.
... And Kamina is a delicious piece of man-meat whose colloquially appropriate speech patterns I will defend to the GRAVE. If I wanted to have an exact translation of a show, I would learn Japanese and move to Moonland and nitpick all I wanted. I, however, enjoy the charm of a transliterated language. I run into this same problem writing fic for Tales of Symphonia, man. Zelos's speech patterns differ greatly from language to language, but it adds to his local character. So make Zelos less outright vulgar, more suave. So make Kamina less full of drama proper, more dude-bro. I dig it. I lol. I find that his last words were touching in their sincerity. Humans are naturally more inclined to use colloquial patterns (i.e. contractions) when saying something that they know to be true to the best of their knowledge. I believed Kamina. It made his end more bittersweet. If that happened to be because of a skewed, Americanized translation, so be it. And for that matter, I roll wit dem punches for what they are. If we're not providing the translations you want, obviously you have other resources.
Will edit with more coherent reply later.
... IN AMERICA.
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ninfa
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Nov 8, 2009 12:37:28 GMT -5
Post by ninfa on Nov 8, 2009 12:37:28 GMT -5
I have to disagree with the notion that Nia is a Mary Sue because she's so far been only a supporting character. Usually Mary Sues arrive and hog up all the screen time. They are given super, speshul, teh awesome powers and become just as strong as the main character at fighting (or whatever it is that the main character does) in an instant with no justification. Nia is NOT good at everything. She is domestic and cute and gives advice, but there isn't anything else so far to indicate that she's going to be the heart and soul of the anime. If you call Nia a Mary Sue, you might as well call Yoko a Mary Sue too because of her abilities to fight and kick ass while looking totally hott and sporting nothing more than a revealing bikini. I think the whole "everyone falling in love with Nia" bit is actually the writers laughing at themselves. It's a common motif in anime that the innocent, goody goody girl is popular with the boys. Before Nia's arrival, it was Yoko who received all the boy attention, yet you don't bring up that fact when you claim Nia is just a stereotype. Nia reminds me of Tohru from Fruits Basket (except that Tohru is the main character, and so the show is about her, which is not the case in TTGL.) If you don't like Nia, that's fine; but I think you are incorrect in labeling her a Mary Sue.
Also, I too like the translations we've been getting for Kamina. Saying "Farewell, my comrades" would've been too formal for his character. I think, Ben, that you are someone who likes a direct, word-for-word translation. However, I support the (now more popular theory) translating to reflect colloquial meaning.
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katchan
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Nov 8, 2009 18:45:42 GMT -5
Post by katchan on Nov 8, 2009 18:45:42 GMT -5
might I just start off by saying that i find it funny that there was a ben vs. ben war going on until Jen came along.
ANYONE who has anything bad to say about Kamina, or anything he does, will have to answer to me. consider yourself warned ^_^
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duohimura
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Nov 8, 2009 21:24:49 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 8, 2009 21:24:49 GMT -5
Hey I started a debate! *Ahem*
Well, I certainly cannot defend that nitpicky translation things are nitpicky. Whether GARlock says "They're worthy opponents" or "They -aren't- worthy to be our opponents" is either missing or adding a -negative-, so whoever has that wrong doesn't have much of an excuse (and again, I don't know who that would be), but most things are fairly superficial.
My issue with dude-bro-ing in translations of anime is that I've NEVER known someone to actually talk like that. Occasionally calling someone "man" or "dude," yes; "that's how we roll," not so much. I suppose no matter how you translate Kamina that's going to be the case, but yes, I do prefer the drama-proper version, though it was always over the top to the point of humor, and it was always fairly colloquial.
Again, my only beef with "Later, buddy" is the silliness of "later" under the circumstances (and "Abayo" isn't the Japanese equivalent, i.e. what you say to someone to imply that you will see them again in the near future) and the fact that Kamina wasn't just talking to Simon there. I mean, come on, would he honestly leave Yoko out of that particular goodbye? She gets shafted badly enough as it is, don't you think? Also--there are some characters who reference the line later, and I'm not sure how it's gonna work with "Later, buddy" as the translation of choice, though I suppose it will be fine.
Anyway, the only reason I bring this stuff up is in case someone besides me cares about it and didn't already know. That seems not to be the case with the people who have replied so far, but whatever.
But yes, I do prefer more direct translations, because I find something to be literally lost in translation when you try too hard to make things colloquial, like sometimes the ability to take what's being said seriously. A good translator can convey "colloquial" without dipping into the great heap of abused Hollywood-slang. Plus slang dates itself exceedingly fast in this country.
Mind you, I realize translation is always a compromise and some things just don't carry over unless the audience is interested enough to look into the original language. Literal translations are rarely very good at all. For instance Japanese prose seems to occasionally say things that good English prose -wouldn't-, and that's where you need to find another way to say the same thing, or perhaps change your verb, whatever. Still, there are times when things seem to be arbitrarily changed to be more simplistic, or more "familiar," when a more direct translation is still fully understandable, and has layers of subtlety that a given translation obscures.
If I may use an example--in Eureka Seven's first ending theme (Himitsu Kichi/Secret Base), the chorus would literally be translated something like this (and this could use some prettifying but work with me, it's mostly based on Animelyrics' version): "No matter how many times I stretched out my hand, there was no way it would ever reach across that large, large sky But I never doubted anything, I believed in a beautiful future. There were difficult times, when I couldn't fight back against the large, large tears, But that time, I think that my eyes were shining more than anything."
The official subtitles are more or less the same (there are probably aesthetic differences), but opts to translate the last line: "But I think my eyes never shone so brightly as when I was young."
Now the song clearly does refer to the singer's youth (the first lines are "Back when I was little, the sky I looked up at seemed so vast / I truly thought I could protect my loved ones with these hands. "), but the official translation there seems to strip the original line of a certain sense of ambiguity. Admittedly I think "more than anything" does -introduce- a little ambiguity that wasn't in the Japanese, but using "when I was young," there, aside from not being very poetic, seems to take away something.
[/Rant]
*Ahem* Sorry about that. I find translation really interesting, actually, and often irksome, so.
Um. We're talking about her father, who she admits is the only person she's ever relied on, locking her in a box then throwing her into a ravine with every intention of LEAVING HER TO DIE of starvation/thirst. When she manages to survive this, he then orders her execution. Show me a real person who would not be at least slightly off-balanced by that, and I'll show you someone who either has the most incredible emotional fortitude in the world, or more likely already has some sort of psychological issues.
That aside--fair enough that Nia doesn't really monopolize screen time. Though I question your Yoko parallel, because Yoko does display a lot of human flaws, notably after Nia shows up. Nia's flaws are basically all wrapped up in the viewer supposing that they're actually supposed to -be- flaws (i.e. that her extreme passivity is actually being used to criticize her).
My beef with Nia is that she's of a category of characters who get to more or less waltz through a show and just be "right." Like, long-winded moralizing speeches about how wrong it is to kill people? You don't -do- that unless you're going to slap that character with a harsh dose of reality shortly thereafter, or else make them WORK to keep to that ideal (i.e. Vash). I suppose she may not be "powerful" enough to be a traditional Sue, but she's still unrealistically perfect, and the show itself treats her as such, and in my book that's generally enough to count.
By the way, if I at any point come off like I'm way too intense here I'm really not trying to be, I just wanted to explain my viewpoint adequately.
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katchan
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Nov 8, 2009 22:32:18 GMT -5
Post by katchan on Nov 8, 2009 22:32:18 GMT -5
I actually like the colloquial translation they give Kamina, since to me it kind of gives him a less refined air than if they had translated it more 'properly', which I certainly feels adds to his character. got to agree with Jen that I liked the way they translated his last words, since I felt that "Later, Buddy: kind of showed his close connection to Simon and highlighted that in a way that "Farewell, Comrades" lacks
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trickssi
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Nov 8, 2009 23:12:05 GMT -5
Post by trickssi on Nov 8, 2009 23:12:05 GMT -5
I actually like the colloquial translation they give Kamina, since to me it kind of gives him a less refined air than if they had translated it more 'properly', which I certainly feels adds to his character. got to agree with Jen that I liked the way they translated his last words, since I felt that "Later, Buddy: kind of showed his close connection to Simon and highlighted that in a way that "Farewell, Comrades" lacks Totes agree. And going with what you'd said earlier, Ben, I feel that while "comrades" encompasses Yoko, "buddy" is sooooo much more Kamina. After all, Kamina and Yoko hadn't been an item until that very episode. While I want to say, sure, of course he'd care about her enough to mention her in his last words, gee. I think having done that would have made it too "fanficcy." And by that I mean, I've totally been there in other fandoms so I notice how to recognize it. Example: Why didn't freaking Sirius Black leave anything to anyone but Harry in his will? He obviously had other people to leave his wealth to. Explanation for this? I can't even say pre-Azkaban because he still would've wanted Remus to live well, even if Lily and James and Peter were out of his life. But that's where my fanon does not equate with the canon. Obviously, I want Sirius to have left things to Remus because I ship them, but JKR had other plans, other ways to explain Sirius's character. And it made sense: one-track mind Sirius leaving everything to his godson instead of remembering other people in his moments of blind emotion. Kamina's the same way. He's known Simon for much longer than anyone else, so his little bro comes first in his life. If you think that Yoko mattered more, I'm sorry, it can't possibly be that way. I pair Kamina/Yoko like there's no tomorrow--they're hot and hilarious and delightful. But Kamina's got his own life outside of her. I do love Yoko herself, don't get me wrong. I sympathize with her greatly. (It could be the big butt thing xD; ) But thinking that Kamina would make a nod to her instead of Simon in the end? Hopeless. Plus, he had just been combined with Simon, so it's gonna be the thing most recently on his mind. Maybe what he said doesn't literally translate to "later" or "buddy," but in the English language it evokes the same feeling of despair that the Japanese does, I'm sure. The words themselves don't matter so much as the feeling they evoke. ( FEELING OF "BROTHERLY" LOVE OH GOD THIS RELATES SO MUCH TO MY HP FANDOM) Also, can I just say that I'm a little offended at the lack of respect for dialect? I grew up in a white breadbox, too, but people have all sorts of different speech patterns. To say that nobody actually talks like that is to be narrow-minded. Seriously. I'm a dude-bro kind of gal. Granted that I was born in San Diego, CA, I was raised in the east without surfers around me. It's just how I am. The art of dialect really shows itself through scripting, as I learned when I flirted with playwriting some years ago. To make dialogue that's typical of a character, sometimes the translation must be skewed (and yes, here I go back to the translation stuff, but I'm really passionate about it). tl;dr: Dialect should reflect character > translation. Because, really, when you take the fun out of the words, what are they? Just black and white on a page, or empty articulations in the air. Okay, I'm not going to push my points any further. I'm calling bullshit on myself: Decorum on the forum. In the meantime, I have a musicological excitement to point out. I need to learn the name of the leitmotifs--'cause whenever this particular happy beat comes out (it's sort of techno/remixy), there's a specific quotation of an Aaron Copeland piece from Rodeo, which is a ballet reflecting the culture of the American West. I freaked out about how cool it was when I first heard it and forgot to look it up. Some day I'd love to get into the nerdy world of exploring anime soundtracks...
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duohimura
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Nov 9, 2009 11:56:02 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 9, 2009 11:56:02 GMT -5
Okay, first off, let me just apologize again for my previous post because I tend to ramble when I'm tired.
That being said, I -do- agree with you that "farewell, comrades" goes too far towards formality. But I still think Kamina is aware of the importance the entire group places on him, and would want to remember everyone in his last words. I mean he did spend half the episode already giving Simon dramatic face-punching advice. "Believe in the you who believes in himself," are his last words to -Simon-; "Abayo, dachiko" is his farewell to everyone he's known and fought alongside, in my book. But this is all subjective, so it's not worth arguing--in cases like this I feel it's enough to know the original Japanese without looking for a great English equivalent.
I'll agree with you that capturing the feel of a character is more important than direct translation, but you yourself admit that there are times (not necessarily Kamina) where translators have actually -changed- the feel of a character through their translations. I find that somewhat presumptuous, though admittedly I don't have many examples outside of Zelos and that was probably a "keep it PG" kind of decision.
By the same token, though, while there are all kinds of dialects and manners of speaking, I feel like a good translation can convey a unique style of speech for a given character while still drawing upon common-usage English, and it then becomes much less specific. Can you give a character who speaks Osaka dialect a western accent? Sure, but it's going to sound silly to a lot of people. It's sort of like why very few authors opt for the Mark Twain method of dialect-usage. And like I said, slang dates itself very fast, and then sounds silly even if it's trying to reproduce the dialect you yourself speak.
Anyway, I like pseudo-direct translations because I feel like it exposes you to a greater extent to the culture and mannerisms of the country of origin. Obviously you can never get all the subtleties of the original language, but sometimes you can "educate" your audience to a certain extent even in just the context of a translation.
A much more grievous example of this, though, would be for Bokurano, when the children's "chairs" are produced from their minds (it's a long story, but the short version is they're symbolic), one of the characters, looking at a chair that is a plain cushion (in traditional Japanese fashion) says "What a cheap imagination." Official English translation? "That's pretty ghetto, man." Or the name of the robot in the series, Zearth--it's a take on "The Earth" either way, and while even the original Japanese reflects that they made it "Zearth" just to be less-boring than "The Earth" ("Zearth" sounds very similar in Japanese to how "The Earth" would be pronounced), the English version, rather than go off into an explanation of Japanese pronunciation mechanics, opts for "The Z makes it more extreme!" You cannot use the word "extreme," meaning cool, in a serious fashion in English anymore. It's become self-parodying. And that's what happens about half the time translators try to use English slang (not necessarily in GL)--it sounds like it was pulled from a list of stereotypes that you would use to make jokes about a dialect.
But anyway this is largely a matter of opinion, so it may not be worth carrying on discussion about this any longer...
Incidentally, if the name Lord Genome didn't clue you in on this, the Four Generals are named for the four nucleotide bases that make up DNA:
Adiane = Adenine Thymiliph (sp?) = Thymine Guame = Guanine Cytomander = Cytosine
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myusollo
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Nov 9, 2009 20:00:09 GMT -5
Post by myusollo on Nov 9, 2009 20:00:09 GMT -5
Substantial change to a character is certainly a tricky thing, although one of the important aspects of adaptation is the application of one's own interpretation to a work. While translation is usually a more literal conversion, is it really so bad to significantly alter a character? Actors do it all the time when playing the same roles; Jack Nicholson differs from Mark Hamill who differs from Heath Ledger when all three play the Joker.
Voice actors are the same way. The best example that comes to mind is Captain Tylor, who is played in English by Crispin Freeman (down, Jen, down). Crispin is the absolute antithesis of who I'd have cast for the role, and yet his version of Tylor is incredibly compelling because he makes it his own and he makes it WORK.
As for the Osakan/southern parallel, I think the biggest problem with that is the fact that I have NEVER heard someone try that who actually knew how southern accents really work. They're very regional, you can't just mush them all together into one bad stereotype. Similarly, I've come across a few examples of an Osakan/New Yorker parallel, which actually works very slightly better. Not much, though. Read the Azumanga Daioh manga, they try that with Osaka and it makes her read like Harley Quinn for a while. Bleh.
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