duohimura
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Nov 10, 2009 0:21:06 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 10, 2009 0:21:06 GMT -5
Well, that's my point--very few translators seem to know how to use dialect/slang in a not-horrendous fashion. Slang in particular, since most translators are necessarily adults and adults tend not to have the best grasp of the current slang employed by teenagers/kids. Thus, I think region-neutral English is usually a good call as long as you can write it in a way that makes the character's personality shine through.
And I would argue that trying to alter a character in a translation -is- bad, yes. Dubs are different because you're actually changing something, although I'm not terribly fond of dubs either because I'm a purist about this sort of thing. But when writing subtitles, the translator's job is just to translate what's being said. Adaptation may necessarily follow for things like jokes that don't cross over well, but unless we're talking about actually changing the material in some way, it isn't the translator's -place- to impose their interpretations, because it narrows the range of possible interpretations TO how they see it (this may be unavoidable anyway, but certainly it shouldn't be deliberate). It's different in theater, where various directors and actors bring their unique perspectives to a character, because plays exist in that realm of constant reinterpretation. But odds are there'll only ever be the one subtitle track for a given show--it's not something where you can see various interpretations and compare them (discounting fansubs or whatever).
I mean, yeah, the various Jokers are all different, but those guys were working with completely different interpretations of the character to begin with, and they existed in different contexts. It's almost to the point of him not being the same character--the Joker was written differently for each of them, and the stories they were taking part in were different.
Contrast a translation job, where for the vast majority of the audience, this is the -only- version of a character they're going to see. Isn't a translator's responsibility not to create something new, but to -use- their own creativity and knowledge to make sure that the creator's intent is preserved? If you cease to regard the creator's intentions as supreme, I'm not sure you're a translator anymore--you're trying to be some sort of cross-lingual editor (rather like scribes who may or may not have screwed around with Chaucer's work in a couple of places). Which is why I would say that, ideally, translators should only work on material which they respect enough to -want- to leave it alone to the greatest extent possible, making only what changes are necessary to facilitate understanding (economically unfeasible though that may be).
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myusollo
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Nov 10, 2009 0:58:04 GMT -5
Post by myusollo on Nov 10, 2009 0:58:04 GMT -5
While it may seem like a disruption of the "purity" of the original work, it must be accepted that translation is a form of adaptation. Two translators with equal respect for the work can produce vastly different translations, often with varying meanings. I've read several translations of The Divine Comedy, all done by well-respected writers and translators, and they all have significant variations.
One of the most dangerous concepts in the creative world is the idea that any story is sacred. The original work is NOT perfect. The original artist IS sometimes wrong. The work CAN be done better. And anyone who works in adaptation in any form, whether it be mere translating or telling a new story based on the previous work, must be prepared to accept that. Strict literalism will prove that you understand the language, but it does NOT make for good translation.
As for the Joker example that I mentioned, the writers certainly did their own thing with each of the characters; however, as a one-time drama major who focused on screenwriting, I can tell you that the writer, and even the director, only go so far in creating a character. It is the actor (or actress) who develops the actual character, who takes the writer's blueprints and the director's suggestions and creates a character from these scraps. Hannibal Lecter is not nearly as compelling in the book The Silence of the Lambs because he is comparably thin. Anthony Hopkins is the one that took him and made him one of the most fascinating sociopaths ever to grace the screen.
But I digress. TTGL will have different translations based on who's translating. It's a little ridiculous to say, "The fansub is better," because I ended up watching multiple fansubs in order to get all the way through the series. Actually, there was one somewhat poor subber who was overly fond of substituting "Fuck" where "Damn" or "Hell" or just about anything would've worked better. At the same time, I doubt the sub is wrong, it's just different in an objectionable way.
Oh, and to be clear, I'm not saying it's objectionable just because they USE the word "Fuck". I fuckin' use "fuck" all the fucking time. They just overuse it, and it's clear they're saying it just to say it.
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trickssi
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Nov 10, 2009 1:07:51 GMT -5
Post by trickssi on Nov 10, 2009 1:07:51 GMT -5
One of the most dangerous concepts in the creative world is the idea that any story is sacred. The original work is NOT perfect. The original artist IS sometimes wrong. The work CAN be done better. And anyone who works in adaptation in any form, whether it be mere translating or telling a new story based on the previous work, must be prepared to accept that. Strict literalism will prove that you understand the language, but it does NOT make for good translation. FUCK YEAH! Oh wait... Oh, and to be clear, I'm not saying it's objectionable just because they USE the word "Fuck". I fuckin' use "fuck" all the fucking time. They just overuse it, and it's clear they're saying it just to say it.
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duohimura
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Nov 10, 2009 21:31:09 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 10, 2009 21:31:09 GMT -5
While it may seem like a disruption of the "purity" of the original work, it must be accepted that translation is a form of adaptation. Two translators with equal respect for the work can produce vastly different translations, often with varying meanings. I've read several translations of The Divine Comedy, all done by well-respected writers and translators, and they all have significant variations. One of the most dangerous concepts in the creative world is the idea that any story is sacred. The original work is NOT perfect. The original artist IS sometimes wrong. The work CAN be done better. And anyone who works in adaptation in any form, whether it be mere translating or telling a new story based on the previous work, must be prepared to accept that. Strict literalism will prove that you understand the language, but it does NOT make for good translation. But the purpose of translation isn't to interpret, it's to bring a story to an audience that doesn't know a particular language. It isn't the translator's -job- to decide what is and isn't perfect about the story, but to convey it to a new audience in a way that mirrors the author's intentions. Unless the creator is able to read the language their work is being translated into, then, they can't really have any input on the translator's "interpretative" decisions, and you shouldn't make alterations to a work just on your own authority. I disagree also, that the original artist is "wrong." Ever. They can espouse a false viewpoint, and they can be clumsy or imperfect, yes, but "wrong"? Who defines that? There's no criteria. You, I, and anyone else on the planet could write the same story and for the most part they would all be fairly different--and some versions might do some things well and some might do others well, and some might speak to certain people or fall flat to certain people, but there's no objective way to judge that in anything but the most general sense. Can some, if not all, works be improved? Yes. But that's up to the person who created them. Someone else can redo the story and do it their way, but they don't have the right to alter another person's work. Once again, though, I do not advocate strict literalism--I advocate strict adherence to the author's intention, then readability, and then accuracy. What I do not value are arbitrary changes where you might as well have let the original work speak for itself. I fail to see what's "dangerous" about believing that a person's work is something that only they can produce, and thus should be protected from whatever changes others might make to it. That's what intellectual property rights are all about. Also--translation in a literary context is very different from translation in the context of something like anime, because again, there will almost always be multiple translations of any literary or academic work. And because many people have translated The Divine Comedy according to their own interpretations, the different versions must be even more polarized to make themselves stand out (i.e. for it to be worthwhile to do a new translation). But anime and such are not written in an impossible-to-reproduce-in-English meter, and are not, frankly, intended to be analyzed on the level of poetry. Which isn't to say that there aren't literary analyses that can be applied to anime, but they do not tend to involve a focus on diction or word choice. A particular interpretation of a character/story constructed entirely by how you translate dialogue, without changing anything else, has to be maintained by a very conscious effort if it is to actually alter the audience's perception of that story/character. So in other words you'd have to set out and say something like "I think it's stupid that Kamina says 'goodbye' to everyone and NOT just Simon," and deliberately make that change--only on a much larger scale. A translation may -require- elements of adaptation, but they aren't the same thing. A true adaptation is a retelling of a story from a new angle. A translation is meant to bring the original story to a new group of people. Anyway, I really don't think we're going to find a resolution to this... and the protracted debate is just kind of annoying me at this point, unless anyone has anything earth-shattering to add. As far as TTGL goes, I would never say that all fansubs were superior to the official subs, or even that some fansubs were superior in every way, but there are undeniably clumsy lines in the official subs that were expressed more eloquently/pleasingly (since they were not all "eloquent") in certain fansubs. The fansubbers have all also been -wrong- about certain words as well, but there are times when they produced a much nicer version of a speech/whatever than the official subs did. In my opinion, anyway.
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myusollo
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Nov 10, 2009 21:52:24 GMT -5
Post by myusollo on Nov 10, 2009 21:52:24 GMT -5
You have a fair point. To say that a writer can be wrong implies that there is a fixed compass on which right and wrong can be judged. However, if you hold the position that no such compass exists, then you must concede that, by the same token, a writer can never be RIGHT. Right cannot and does not exist without wrong. Are you saying that a writer merely is? Another interesting point; clearly, though, you've never worked with an editor, whose JOB it is to guide a writer regarding what is right and what is wrong.
I've already presented my case that translation is a form of adaptation, so I won't belabor the point much further. To say that anime shouldn't be judged the way literature is judged does trouble me, however. the true importance and significance of any art cannot be appreciated in a short span of time; during his era, Shakespeare's work was considered low class, as was all theatre; very GOOD low class work, mind you, but hardly highbrow or enlightened. It is only in retrospect, in the use and reuse of his work over the centuries, that its true brilliance shines through. Similarly, Dickens' works were practically the soap operas of the Victorian Age, and yet we revere them today. Who knows the true value of anime in the long run? All we can do is treat it like any other artform and appreciate it.
To concede a point, I will admit I have known similar sentiments when watching the official subs after watching a fansub. Azumanga Daioh had a really nice fansub that opted to include explanations of some of the not-easily-translated jokes, while the official subs opted to just roll with it or try to "adapt" the jokes. The manga was even worse about it, you can tell without even seeing the original. It has been my experience, however, that such opinions may shift as I adapt to the different subs. Looking back at that fansub, I do find the language a bit clunkier, a bit less natural. Perhaps the subs just need to grow on you? Just a thought.
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duohimura
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Nov 10, 2009 22:55:09 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 10, 2009 22:55:09 GMT -5
Well, as far as right/wrong go, it's basically a scale of "effectiveness," isn't it? And that's subjective a lot of the time. To be sure there -can- be good/bad ideas of how to convey something, and editors are necessary as -guides-. But the point is that while they may point out where something isn't working well, the writer, or artist of any type, really, still needs to be the one to fix it.
It's not that anime shouldn't be judged the way literature should be--it's that anime shouldn't be judged the way -poetry- should be. Word choice is one of the things you look for in poetry, where you have the words in front of you, or else you hear the effect they produce. Visual mediums like film and anime rarely use particular words in the way poetry does because they're not constructed like that--you tend to analyze their stories and characters, not necessarily their language (at least, not to the same level). Whether the opening lines of The Iliad refer to Achilleus' "wrath," "anger," or "rage," can produce different effects on the reader, but whether a character says "I'm angry with ___" or "I'm pissed off at ____" doesn't typically produce the same range of connotations, especially if the tone is the same (and when you have the same audio track either way, it has to be--whereas the word choice in a translation of prose or poetry can alter the tone).
Don't get me wrong, GL's official subs aren't -dreadful- or anything. I think phrases like "We brawlers" need to go die in a hole, and I don't see why the official subs translated what was literally something like "But on my back, and in my heart, he lives on as a part of me!" to include a verb form for each part of the statement (it was something like "He's in my heart" but I don't remember what it did with the "back" line), making the expression somewhat clumsier. But I don't find it unwatchable or anything. Part of the problem is just that GL is such a quotable show, though--you remember the lines as you first hear them.
Mind you, I do get annoyed with other official sub decisions too, like Eureka Seven's translation inexplicably starts applying words that don't have a clear direct object to what seems the less-logical of the choices. For instance, making a "suki" into "I love -it-" rather than "I love -you-." It amounted to the same thing under the circumstances because that was the tone of the conversation but it was a slightly asinine way of going about it. They got some stuff, though, like making "suteki na koi" into a "a wonderful romance" rather than the fansub's "someone to love." They did undercut it by having a character say "Oh brother," a phrase that I'm convinced was cheesy even when it was invented, in a serious context.
Anyway, I know it's all splitting hairs, but that's what I do when I like something, pretty much. I tend to pick at whatever little things about a show bug me, and if the translation starts contributing to that, well...
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myusollo
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Nov 10, 2009 23:20:48 GMT -5
Post by myusollo on Nov 10, 2009 23:20:48 GMT -5
Hmmm, interesting. I suppose a scale of effectiveness is a good way to think about it; the best editors do seek to help an artist present their work most effectively. And although I have had far too much experience with bad editors, you often can't deny their results.
It is also true that, while art forms are not inherently superior or inferior to each other, they must be judged within their respective media and by appropriate standards. I also concede that anime, as an inherently more visual artform than, say, poetry, does not rely quite as heavily on word choice. Although to be fair, that does hamper the argument that the level of variation between subs matters all that much.
I suspect most of the topics on this subject have been expended, and I apologize to the rest of the forum if I monopolized this debate too much. I tend to be rather contrarian, and as such love arguing counterpoint until the cows come home. It has been a fun discussion, and I look forward to the next one.
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duohimura
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Nov 11, 2009 11:32:48 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 11, 2009 11:32:48 GMT -5
Well, in the interests of moving on from that particular debate, here's FREAKIN' SQUIDWARD: (This character will always be referred to as "Freakin' Squidward" because that was what a friend of mine and I said initially when we went looking for him and it stuck) Incidentally, more fun music facts about Gurren Lagann: The heroic number that plays in the opening of the first episode when the title appears, and then again when they break out of the village is called "With your drill, break through to heaven!" and the sad-version of it is just "With your drill..." Or at least, this is the assumption. For some reason the word "drill" has been replaced in both song titles with "XXXX"... There are 2 character "singles" for the series (i.e. sung by the voice actors as their characters). Yoko has a romantic one (about Kamina, of course) called "Trust," and the other is a hot-blooded duet between Simon and Kamina called "BREAK THROUGH THE DREAM." It includes a spoken word segment over an instrumental that's adapted basically from episode 8... Kamina: Simon! Your drill is a drill that will break through the heavens and tomorrow! Simon: Bro! I'm going! I WILL make a path with my own hands! Kamina: Who-- Simon: --the hell-- Both: DO YOU THINK WE ARE?! On a side note, since the first word of the phrase translated everywhere as "Who the hell do you think I am" is the word meaning "I," (in a very brash, masculine way) what actually happens in that scene in the anime is that Simon does the normal quote, starting with "I," but Kamina says "We," instead (plural of the same word for "I"), and vice versa in this case. I always thought that was pretty cool, but the only way to do it in English is to make it "I--" "We--" "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE?!" which... is awkward, certainly. You do miss sort of a whole level of Kamina being awesome and brotherly by leaving it out, though.
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trickssi
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Nov 11, 2009 19:51:55 GMT -5
Post by trickssi on Nov 11, 2009 19:51:55 GMT -5
The heroic number that plays in the opening of the first episode when the title appears, and then again when they break out of the village is called "With your drill, break through to heaven!" and the sad-version of it is just "With your drill..." Or at least, this is the assumption. For some reason the word "drill" has been replaced in both song titles with "XXXX"... Haha. Penis.
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ninfa
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Nov 11, 2009 19:56:54 GMT -5
Post by ninfa on Nov 11, 2009 19:56:54 GMT -5
Oh you know you really wanted to say dick/cock. ^_~
(I thought it too when I saw the "XXXX") lmao
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trickssi
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Nov 11, 2009 22:51:52 GMT -5
Post by trickssi on Nov 11, 2009 22:51:52 GMT -5
Oh you know you really wanted to say dick/cock. ^_~ (I thought it too when I saw the "XXXX") lmao Certainly. Cock for the win. And Kamina can pierce my heavens any day~ Seriously. UNF. How is the man so manly? Never before have I wanted to have the children of an anime/game character. Not that I'm ignoring the intellectual goings-on above or anything..... edit: OH MAH GAH my post number is 69 right now xDDDDD Okay, I'll stop acting like a thirteen-year-old boy, I promise.
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trickssi
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Nov 11, 2009 23:48:57 GMT -5
Post by trickssi on Nov 11, 2009 23:48:57 GMT -5
Sorry to a) double-post and b) make the wall gigantic, but this was just too awesome to pass up. It's the three best things in the world right now: Calvin, Kenyon (by way of Bill Watterson), and Kamina. And reminds me that no matter how hard the art department is getting me down, I could potentially make the most awesome comic known to man. But enough about this awful week.
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duohimura
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Nov 12, 2009 23:41:36 GMT -5
Post by duohimura on Nov 12, 2009 23:41:36 GMT -5
Hey, if you ever want a probably-overly-demanding writer for that comic--*shot to death*
Ahahaha... yeah, but seriously if you know anyone who's a good artist and wants to work on a comic for an indeterminate length of time for no compensation other than possible internet-fame and the satisfaction of a job well done... Maybe I need to work on my sales pitch...
Also, is that unedited? Because if so, greatest thing ever.
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trickssi
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Nov 13, 2009 8:13:35 GMT -5
Post by trickssi on Nov 13, 2009 8:13:35 GMT -5
Hey, if you ever want a probably-overly-demanding writer for that comic--*shot to death* Ahahaha... yeah, but seriously if you know anyone who's a good artist and wants to work on a comic for an indeterminate length of time for no compensation other than possible internet-fame and the satisfaction of a job well done... Maybe I need to work on my sales pitch...Also, is that unedited? Because if so, greatest thing ever. Looks fairly unedited. I mean, someone would have had to go into a super-high-quality copy of it in order to get those jpeg marks without shooping. Even if it were, I'ma pretend that Sir Watterson is just that Awesome. Also solicitations go in other sections...
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myusollo
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Nov 13, 2009 20:04:55 GMT -5
Post by myusollo on Nov 13, 2009 20:04:55 GMT -5
Oh shame on all of you. You go to Kenyon and don't own every single Calvin and Hobbes comic ever? Isn't that like a prerequisite to getting accepted?
It's not edited.
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